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Mandragola, my phrase you quoted was a hyperbole. Rather, a paradox. I hope you understood the essence of my speech: the innovation in VU lies in the substance, in the so-called "imaginary" they have translated into music like no one else before them, in the global expression, in the ultimate aim, in the overall effect, in the results achieved, in short. Got what I meant? ;-)

@ Josi: in fact, after "smerdato," I added "maybe" :-P Seriously, I will listen to it again as soon as I can: Enea's intervention has piqued my curiosity... @ Enea: if you listen to Desertshore, you'll fall in love with the beautiful Nico too, you can be sure of that ;-) @ Killgod: even if Marco tricked us, who cares? From his crazy review, one of the most serious and interesting discussions in recent times on Debaser was born!

(perhaps...) ;-D

Official statement: Enea, you totally roasted me! :-OOOO

I understood your speech Mandragola, but allow me to say one thing: in this long series of posts, we have talked about everything except the most important thing, the ultimate and fundamental purpose of Art: expression. And if expression is the purpose of Art, it is clear that certain means are necessary to achieve this purpose. Now, it is evident that the VU used specific means (i.e., technical and stylistic devices of various origins), and it is equally clear that all these means (free-jazz, minimalism, rock'n'roll, folk, etc.) have been used by other artists for different purposes, but one thing is undeniable: the aim pursued and achieved by the VU had nothing to do with that of the various free-jazz, minimalist, rnr, folk artists who preceded them. No one before the VU (neither Coltrane, nor Sun Ra, nor LaMonte Young, nor Chuck Berry, nor the Byrds, etc.) had managed to reach such an effective expression of feelings such as discomfort, neurosis, alienation, decay, urban degradation, moral chaos, psychological violence, perversion, etc. The means used by the VU to reach this goal are, upon closer inspection, of secondary importance.

Oh no!!! You can't so casually celebrate the marriage between Mr. MINIMALISM and Mrs. TECHNICAL INCOMPETENCE!!! Are you kidding??!! Come on, let’s be serious... And I never said that the VU weren’t inspired by Coltrane and LaMonte Young; I just criticized your statement "they took free-jazz and rehashed it PARO PARO with guitars instead of saxophones"... For me, that’s a gross oversimplification. Are you saying that Sister Ray or European Son (or even Venus, Waiting, Black Angel, Heroin, etc...), if they were done with sax instead of guitar, would be free-jazz tracks (and could thus be mistaken for compositions by Coltrane)? Please... The VU made ROCK.

I don't think this discussion is idle: I'm having a blast! @ Enea: Nico with a trembling voice??!! I've never heard a more solid throat than hers... Returning to the Velvet, while it's true they borrowed ideas from free jazz and the avant-garde, it's equally true that they were quite genius, creative, and skilled in adapting them to the language of rock (essentially inventing a new rock); and they did the same with African folk (Moe Tucker), European folk (Nico), and raga (Venus in Furs...). Oh, how universal the Velvet Underground were!!!!!!!! :-DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

And then you can't tell me that the Velvets took free jazz and did it with guitars instead of horns!!! That's an unacceptable simplification! Moreover, even the more melodic, folkier tracks have very little to do (in terms of decadent moods, Spartan arrangements) with folk, pop, or the psych-rock of the time... It matters little whether these are songs with verses and choruses... THAT SAID, IT'S CLEAR THAT THERE WERE OTHER MASTERPIECES DURING THAT PERIOD. But be careful: I believe that an influence like that exerted by the Velvets in alternative rock (not just in the USA), also in terms of "rock song," can't be found in any other band from the 60s or 70s... I mean: geniuses, great artists like Beefheart, Residents, Grateful Dead, Faust, Can, Soft Machine, etc... made wonderful, avant-garde music, but often ended up well beyond what we call "rock." Tracks like Venus in Furs, Waiting for My Man, Heroin, on the other hand, remain "rock songs," so modern that they are still shocking today... (Mandragola, don't worry, I don't mean to target you in particular; it's just that certain bands really get to me, then I start writing and can't stop!!! :-DDDDDD)

It’s really hard to overstate the greatness of this album, because wherever you turn, you find originality, influence, beauty... It’s an album that has led to the most diverse musical trends in alternative rock, inspiring both punk and noise, as well as gothic and even the softer currents (thanks to Sunday Morning and Nico's tracks).

Mandrake, this album has truly earned all this so-called "luck"!!! Back then it was niche, and even today don't think it's as famous as Sgt. Pepper! Its fortune is due in very small part to the story of Warhol, the banana, Reed's solo fame, etc... You know what the "luck" of the Velvet was: the fact that, starting from the late 70's, hundreds of alternative rock bands, up to the present day, have been inspired by them!!! And anyway, the Velvet have nothing to do with so-called "classic rock."