easycure

it's not necessarily a bad copy... it simply lacks significant expressive evolution. The masterpieces, with few exceptions, are American, and they invented it there. And how could they be two communicating vessels when most of the American records in that context were released between '75 and '77? The only major album that followed is Crazy Rhythms by the Feelies... for the rest, already by '79, much more radical noise evolutions had imposed themselves compared to what was happening in the UK (where they had clearly fallen behind). The baggage of influences is definitely what you say, but it also includes Velvet Underground, whose influence has been much more fundamental than that of Bowie, at least in the USA. Bye!

Well, apart from the fact that in my opinion you're still generalizing (I would probably define dark that way, but psychedelia (and punk too) is enormously more varied, articulate, and productive than the definition you mentioned; historical distinctions are essential. And we've all heard those albums or can hear them), in any case, I said something different: I said that what was truly significant in the English new wave hardly goes beyond '79, and afterwards it becomes more of a pathetic and exhibitionistic reference to the usual canon. In '77, the USA produced masterpieces that practically said everything there was to say in that context, domain, and movement. The Ramones said what the Sex Pistols said before the Sex Pistols... Pere Ubu, Suicide, Television, the No Wave, etc. said enormously more, better, and before all of what those English posers exploited in a mostly absolutely vile manner. The only personal things were Joy Division, PIL, maybe the first Wire; the rest lived off reflected light, not to mention tragic paroxysms like Duran Duran or Depeche Mode. And yes, I’ll tell you, I prefer the last Verdena album to Pornography, because everything must be contextualized and relativized, which you, Mike, don’t seem to grasp. This Pornography has catalyzed a kind of fanaticism that enlarges its proportions in a way that is almost ridiculous. There's nothing to suggest that it’s this masterpiece... it’s tedious and monolithic (Strange Day - Short Term Effect is practically a repetition), pathetic (Siamese Twins), pretentious, unnecessarily grandiose, coarse. Regarding the so-called "historical significance" of The Cure, I completely agree with you, only I shift the focal point a bit further back: in my opinion, it’s Three Imaginary Boys and Seventeen Seconds that matter, while the two subsequent albums, regardless of common sense, are mostly poorly executed offshoots of the first and much more forced. Bye!

I don’t see anything "rigid," frankly. And after years and years of listening, just skimming the surface bores me terribly. To consider the Cure of Pornography a great band seems to me a very surface-level judgment. Then you have your logic and I have mine, and your last post seems to suggest that there can't be any common ground; however, I don’t think that means my point of view is the same as “those who don’t understand a damn thing about music in Italy” (which, by the way, I don’t believe to be true...others understand even less, if you look closely, than those you mentioned). It’s absolutely true that rock is a continuous contamination and knows no boundaries. But precisely for this reason, I come to support what I support... on the other hand, regarding the topic of self-referentiality, I’d like to point out that we live in a period completely soaked in total self-referential crap... from which it might be objectively true that many things in rock have been and always will be meaningless fluff.

Just a moment, just a moment.. :-) Silver Apples and Suicide share only the fact that they are both a duo, and likely use the same pioneering synths that had so few sounds they couldn't help but sound similar. Aside from that, it’s hard for me to conceive of two groups that are more distant (even though it's obvious that Suicide were influenced by Silver Apples). The Silver Apples are free spirits singing about hope and love in the era of the Hippies. Suicide are, exactly, the opposite: they are the post-punk proletarian New York steeped in heroin. I couldn't imagine anything more expressively different. Because that’s what it’s about: what does a record, very simply, "want to say"? I agree with you on Seventeen Seconds, surely the least tied to genre canons in the so-called trilogy. But when I think of Faith and Pornography, I don't find anything that hasn't already been "said" in other places. Certainly, these are the two Cure albums that ARE ABSOLUTELY the most rooted in a trend that has hardly said anything interesting after '79. It’s the content that interests me; I couldn't care less about the form. As for my reasons, your analysis definitely has its merits :-D …but it's probably after broadening the listening canon (the Cure, after all, were one of the first bands I became passionate about) and reaching a more general vision that certain things took on a different meaning.. see you!

"it doesn’t matter" ..how can it not matter.. if they arrived later, they cannot be as innovative as you say, otherwise it doesn’t make sense to use the term innovative.. furthermore, everything you describe was done with ENORMOUS greater effectiveness precisely by PIL (what did you listen to? ..it has to be preceding the little “this is not...”).. just the voice of Lyndon, immensely more expressive than Smith’s (at least in conveying the famous anguish; as for eclecticism and grotesqueness, Smith is perhaps unbeatable during that period) would overshadow the entire "dark" production of the Cure. As for JAMC, they arrived only in '85, and were doing something entirely different. So the comparison doesn’t quite fit; Siouxsie, I agree, is still light-years away from the production of the Cure.. but Joy and PIL are marked '78-'79, there’s no way around it, and while Smith was still singing (that pop masterpiece) Boys Don't Cry, Lyndon was already grinding bones with the icy nightmares of Flowers of Romance or Second Edition. A completely different story, after 12 years of listening to reflect on it :-)

Alessio, I tried to mention it in the last review of the Interpol :-) ..but I don't agree with you about their more pop period, like The Top and Kiss Me..those are really the creative Cure (including, absolutely agree, the first one).

great movie. Great recommendation!

This is where I disagree with you.. considering that The Cure came after Joy Division and Public Image Limited; the latter perhaps the absolute best band in the English new wave scene (at least for me). The Cure released a great debut and an excellent follow-up, but, let’s admit it, right from the start they were much more pop than their new wave compatriots; which isn’t a flaw at all, but certainly a demonstration that their more sincere soul wasn’t so dark after all.

I agree: but it’s no coincidence that Robert Smith would vomit.. :-) let’s call it "new wave," and the discussion would probably not change much. The fact that they are "trendy" is a given; there were dozens of records with an, let’s say, "anguished" approach that came out in '81-'82.. So we could say they are not really trendy; let’s say they are very much in line with the period and the trend. I don’t think I listen with my brain (how can you listen with your brain?? ..otherwise I would get bored after thirty seconds. Fortunately, listening to rock is not like studying a treatise), when talking about Suicide and Nico, I spoke of sensations, it seems to me.. of course, in the context of criticism, one should maybe bring at least some objective arguments (not that you haven’t done that!). Bye!

If I have to listen to dark music (a genre that's largely overrated and quite exhibitionist), then I definitely listen to Unknown Pleasures, not pornography, which frankly conveys a sense of angst and alienation (let's call it that) 100 times less effectively than various other records (Desertshore by Nico, for instance, completely outdoes it a hundred billion times and is also 12 years older). I confirm that there’s not a trace of all this depression in the biography: I remember Robert Smith saying "being 17 is perhaps the most beautiful age," I remember the accounts from the Seventeen Seconds tour where Smith and Gallup were known for partying and having fun, something that Hartley didn’t like and was one of the reasons for his departure. I recall an account of the South America tour in '87, the most rock star and enjoyable experience you can imagine, according to Smith himself... well, who knows, it could be... he must have gone through his bad moments, of course, like everyone else. It seems to me that he is certainly not a chronic depressive. The "psychological-emotional collapse" might be true, but the fact is that he bounced back within a few months to write the most carefree series of albums in The Cure's history, demonstrating that there is a significant difference between being depressed and going through a rough patch, if we must frame it biographically. I cannot forget that Faith and Pornography are still The Cure's albums most rooted in a genre, which is something they cannot escape. To put it more simply, they are ultimately the trendiest albums by The Cure, certainly the most predictable and thus among the least creative (with the exception of the last abominations). I said about Let's Go to Bed that "given the subsequent developments, it is definitely more significant than all of Pornography put together"... meaning not that it’s necessarily better (it isn't, tracks like Capertillar and Piggy in the Mirror are enormously more creative than the whines of Pornography), but that given the direction of the subsequent albums, it is definitely a more representative piece than the previous two albums. I started listening to the darker side of The Cure, only to realize that at that stage they are neither the best of the genre nor, by any means, more creative than in other more lighthearted phases.. actually... however, speaking of the new wave in a broader sense, in '77, a masterpiece like "Suicide" by the eponymous band came out: THAT is an album that speaks of anguish, compared to which the majority of these spoiled British darlings' releases are just laughable.