puntiniCAZpuntini

So the points are two. The point about Kraut Rock is dead: current electronics (because that's what you were talking about, saying it's dead) comes from Kraut. The fact that Stockhausen and all his buddies used the gadgets before them can show that Kraut comes from them (and also from Pink Floyd), but the fact remains that the modern form was given to it by them. Primitive things are what they are and will remain so. The modern form comes from those Germans, Kraftwerk, Tangerine, Neu! and various others. They are the ones who shaped rhythm and sounds into the form we know today. Because playing "let's go back" leads to the reality that even Stockhausen took from someone who in turn borrowed from another. Consider the finished product, as I told you before, not the millions of things that make it up. Hearing Stockhausen first and then Warp reveals an abyss of difference. Listening to Kraftwerk, Neu!, some things by Faust, and then Warp shows you evolution, but the concepts remain the same. You're spouting nonsense based on dates and little books; you don't listen to the records, you read about them in reviews. Spare me this nonsense, absorb the records you've been bombarding yourself with for a short time, read less and listen more, without thinking about dates or geographical origins. Let’s return to the discussion from last time that in the end, everything comes from the absolute genius ndggrrr, the one who first took a mammoth's femur and banged it on a stone, creating a sound.

And a little final note: <<< Uagh uagh uagh, always making a fuss. >>> A couple of idiots, this time you started the fuss, and it's quite amusing to me. I only talked about a book, you brought up the intergalactic nature of thought, mathematical rules applied to music, "this is always so" and "that is there in any case"... and all your usual bullshit about the fixed and unmovable cataloging of what is anything but reducible to predetermined schemes that you love to impose on yourself. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy your fuss, but don’t project your fuss onto me this time. A little squabble.

Now let's move on to the other: << He is right, it's just about distinguishing between movement and genre. >> No, that's not at all the point of the discussion. The discussion arises from the fact that I say the Dull can be considered Borderline between Kraut & Prog, since they are part of the Kraut movement while playing in a typically Prog manner, while for Enea, it is not correct. But Enea doesn't explain to me how he considers these Duul, if they are only Kraut, only Prog, or somewhere between Punk & Salsa Merengue. Enea is very good at shifting the focus of the discussion, but still hasn't said a damn thing about the clear point. First, he says that my statement (which said that the Cope issue is contradictory) makes no sense and that I'm talking nonsense; then he tells me he agrees with me on the Cope issue, saying that the Cope issue makes no sense… but if he agrees with me, how can what I wrote not make sense? So he's also saying nonsensical things and talking nonsense. And he even allows himself to "close the discussion," urging me to drop it. The overdose of Kraut from the last six months has somewhat confused him; he should assimilate the two things well (both Kraut and Prog), and then we can talk about it again. This discussion amuses me a lot because it's the first time Enea attacks on topics he knows nothing about (the Kraut-Prog relationship) and even contradicts himself, first telling me that what I say makes no sense, and then that he agrees with me. I can't let this opportunity to annoy Mr. "I impose the discussion on a term and not on the final concept of the sentence" slip away. Besides, this thing that electronics is dead really cracks me up.

And I still can't understand what the hell any of this has to do with Cope's talk. Then I'm the one who goes on rants, but please.

The fact that the name Kraut-Rock is no longer used limits your perspective immensely. I still listen to plenty of Ambient Electronic or Drone records. Just because what Kraftwerk created is now called Electronic, it doesn't mean that it’s no longer being played, or that it’s dead. If there's something that still lives and continues to innovate, it is indeed electronics, and there's no denying it: it was born from the Kraut movement. I think that saying Kraut is dead is a massive load of nonsense, and you only say it because instead of listening, you read the names that are attached to it. The sound of Neu! has evolved into rhythmic electronics, the sound of Tangerine & Schulze has evolved into the drones of minimal ambient, and the more peculiar sounds of Can and Amon Düül still exist today and are still called space-rock. Warp clearly derives from the most extreme Kraut, and you can't say that Warp isn't very much active. The entire proposal that emerged under the name of "kraut-rock" still survives as a musical genre in many, many bands, even more than progressive. It has just found a more suitable name, and the technologies for reproducing it have changed. Names are meant to help us understand each other, not to limit our perspectives. The Kraut movement contained many things, but there's a clear and strong point in 90% of its groups: electronics, and it’s very much alive.

<<< Come on, please, a short post: just a yes or a no. >>> Wait, I said something simple, focused, and concise about a book by a specific artist. You turned it into a huge rant about the differences between Kraut & Prog... and you want a short post? If you don’t want rants, don’t create them, and you yourself stick to the point. If you expand the discussion into 800 variants, then don’t expect three words... eh.

<<< Progressive is a musical genre (yes, okay, very diverse, heterogeneous; the Gong are one thing, the Area are quite another), kraut-rock is a musical movement framed within a historical-musical context? >>> No, to put it in your terms: they are two movements. Born in the same period, developed both in parallel and by intersecting, and both have many variants with several psychedelic elements that connect them. Moreover, even though many Krauts played things belonging to other movements (see, indeed, the Prog of Duul), there are also several Krauts who created a sound that only they proposed at that time; consequently, saying that Neu! and Cluster are 100% Kraut as a musical genre is correct. It may have also taken the name of electronic ambient, but back then saying Kraut wasn’t at all a mistake.

You keep dodging the question: <<< I still don't understand what the hell this has to do with the fact that I find contradictions in Cope's book: do you think it's sensible to call Duul 1 a masterpiece and say that prog is crap? >>> This whole discussion started here. You've created 80 parallel discussions, always sidestepping the original and central one. Answer me.

This thing about fixed rules is really a load of crap. Every time you throw down basic and inconsistent rules, this "non-symmetric property" one is among your Oscars of delusion. Do you realize how awful this standardization of sounds and sensations in a "non-symmetric property" is? These are people expressing themselves, not multiplication tables.

<<< Well, but the length of time spent cultivating something is not always proportional to how much you can understand about it. >> Not always, okay. In this case, yes. In half a year, you haven’t had the actual time to absorb everything, so you’re just throwing out this avalanche of nonsense based on words and not on the central points of the music you’ve listened to. It’s pointless to bring up sets and Borghezio; you know those things, the progressive, NO.