puntiniCAZpuntini

"Come on, how many times do you have that little quarrel?" In fact, I wrote to you: THIS TIME.

"More kraut-rock has died, not electronic music. Which, unfortunately for you, didn't start with Faust and their crew." Noo, it started with the Roman tambourine players beating battle rhythms. But give me a break, the modern form of electronic music of various kinds is German. I've never heard any electronic artist say, "my sources of inspiration are Stockhausen and his cousin Karl Heinz," while I always read "kraut-rock, kraut-rock, kraut-rock." And before I read it, I hear it and realize it. You do the opposite; first you read about it online and then you listen. Your problem is the same as that of everyone who has been listening to music since the internet came along: you know who an artist is, where they come from, and who they are inspired by before you listen to them, and you form a preconceived notion based on your idea of what they've created. If instead you put on a record, listen to it, and decide for yourself what inspires you, you see that perceptions change, and they change drastically. When do you ever put on Autechre and think of Stockhausen... come on.

Point on the Borderline: I write borderline, and I emphasize borderline, because both Kraut and Progressive are movements (as you call them) that nonetheless share a musical genre. Not everyone sounds the same, but at least 80% of the elements that create them are very similar. The Area in prog are special, but the area includes many: Yes, EL&P, Camel, Genesis, and Gong all sound similar, so it can be said that prog, and that of those groups... even if there are people who interpret it differently, it can be said that prog is that. The same goes for Kraut, even if the Duul 2 sound different, and Can different from Duul... there are still a huge number of bands that sound exactly the same, like Schulze, TD organisation, Ash Ra, early Kraftwerk and various others, so in the end, it’s a matter of majority; Kraut is that: proto-electronic. And the Duul 1, by playing different things, become Borderline. But, in the end of it all, do you realize you're building a ridiculous rant on the word Borderline? They’re just words, and you manage to construct a fixed mathematical thought on top of them: you’re not doing well at all.

So the points are two. The point about Kraut Rock is dead: current electronics (because that's what you were talking about, saying it's dead) comes from Kraut. The fact that Stockhausen and all his buddies used the gadgets before them can show that Kraut comes from them (and also from Pink Floyd), but the fact remains that the modern form was given to it by them. Primitive things are what they are and will remain so. The modern form comes from those Germans, Kraftwerk, Tangerine, Neu! and various others. They are the ones who shaped rhythm and sounds into the form we know today. Because playing "let's go back" leads to the reality that even Stockhausen took from someone who in turn borrowed from another. Consider the finished product, as I told you before, not the millions of things that make it up. Hearing Stockhausen first and then Warp reveals an abyss of difference. Listening to Kraftwerk, Neu!, some things by Faust, and then Warp shows you evolution, but the concepts remain the same. You're spouting nonsense based on dates and little books; you don't listen to the records, you read about them in reviews. Spare me this nonsense, absorb the records you've been bombarding yourself with for a short time, read less and listen more, without thinking about dates or geographical origins. Let’s return to the discussion from last time that in the end, everything comes from the absolute genius ndggrrr, the one who first took a mammoth's femur and banged it on a stone, creating a sound.

And a little final note: <<< Uagh uagh uagh, always making a fuss. >>> A couple of idiots, this time you started the fuss, and it's quite amusing to me. I only talked about a book, you brought up the intergalactic nature of thought, mathematical rules applied to music, "this is always so" and "that is there in any case"... and all your usual bullshit about the fixed and unmovable cataloging of what is anything but reducible to predetermined schemes that you love to impose on yourself. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy your fuss, but don’t project your fuss onto me this time. A little squabble.

Now let's move on to the other: << He is right, it's just about distinguishing between movement and genre. >> No, that's not at all the point of the discussion. The discussion arises from the fact that I say the Dull can be considered Borderline between Kraut & Prog, since they are part of the Kraut movement while playing in a typically Prog manner, while for Enea, it is not correct. But Enea doesn't explain to me how he considers these Duul, if they are only Kraut, only Prog, or somewhere between Punk & Salsa Merengue. Enea is very good at shifting the focus of the discussion, but still hasn't said a damn thing about the clear point. First, he says that my statement (which said that the Cope issue is contradictory) makes no sense and that I'm talking nonsense; then he tells me he agrees with me on the Cope issue, saying that the Cope issue makes no sense… but if he agrees with me, how can what I wrote not make sense? So he's also saying nonsensical things and talking nonsense. And he even allows himself to "close the discussion," urging me to drop it. The overdose of Kraut from the last six months has somewhat confused him; he should assimilate the two things well (both Kraut and Prog), and then we can talk about it again. This discussion amuses me a lot because it's the first time Enea attacks on topics he knows nothing about (the Kraut-Prog relationship) and even contradicts himself, first telling me that what I say makes no sense, and then that he agrees with me. I can't let this opportunity to annoy Mr. "I impose the discussion on a term and not on the final concept of the sentence" slip away. Besides, this thing that electronics is dead really cracks me up.

And I still can't understand what the hell any of this has to do with Cope's talk. Then I'm the one who goes on rants, but please.

The fact that the name Kraut-Rock is no longer used limits your perspective immensely. I still listen to plenty of Ambient Electronic or Drone records. Just because what Kraftwerk created is now called Electronic, it doesn't mean that it’s no longer being played, or that it’s dead. If there's something that still lives and continues to innovate, it is indeed electronics, and there's no denying it: it was born from the Kraut movement. I think that saying Kraut is dead is a massive load of nonsense, and you only say it because instead of listening, you read the names that are attached to it. The sound of Neu! has evolved into rhythmic electronics, the sound of Tangerine & Schulze has evolved into the drones of minimal ambient, and the more peculiar sounds of Can and Amon Düül still exist today and are still called space-rock. Warp clearly derives from the most extreme Kraut, and you can't say that Warp isn't very much active. The entire proposal that emerged under the name of "kraut-rock" still survives as a musical genre in many, many bands, even more than progressive. It has just found a more suitable name, and the technologies for reproducing it have changed. Names are meant to help us understand each other, not to limit our perspectives. The Kraut movement contained many things, but there's a clear and strong point in 90% of its groups: electronics, and it’s very much alive.

<<< Come on, please, a short post: just a yes or a no. >>> Wait, I said something simple, focused, and concise about a book by a specific artist. You turned it into a huge rant about the differences between Kraut & Prog... and you want a short post? If you don’t want rants, don’t create them, and you yourself stick to the point. If you expand the discussion into 800 variants, then don’t expect three words... eh.

<<< Progressive is a musical genre (yes, okay, very diverse, heterogeneous; the Gong are one thing, the Area are quite another), kraut-rock is a musical movement framed within a historical-musical context? >>> No, to put it in your terms: they are two movements. Born in the same period, developed both in parallel and by intersecting, and both have many variants with several psychedelic elements that connect them. Moreover, even though many Krauts played things belonging to other movements (see, indeed, the Prog of Duul), there are also several Krauts who created a sound that only they proposed at that time; consequently, saying that Neu! and Cluster are 100% Kraut as a musical genre is correct. It may have also taken the name of electronic ambient, but back then saying Kraut wasn’t at all a mistake.