TheJargonKing

DeRank ™: 16,68 • DeAge™ : 6427 days

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  • Here since 15 october 2007
Worst Progressive artist of all time
Cioè, quelli in antitesi, concettualmente all'opposto del progressive. Il senso di questa classifica non è quello di denigrare gli artisti qui messi, semplicmente ricordare quelli che a mio parere sono diametralmente opposti al progressive.
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  • Emerson
    Emerson
    1 jun 10
    especially 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, and 9 are quite "regressive" even in a broader sense;)
     
  • j&r
    j&r
    1 jun 10
    ..blessed be EXILE ON MAIN STREET..rough, raw, tattered, streetwise, dirty, wild, bastard, drunk, lazy, sweaty, junkie...nothing but progressive!!..listen closely to RIP THIS JOINT..an absolute monument!!!!....and trust me, if you want to listen to cultured music, forget about progressive and turn to classical music..bach, vivaldi, haydn, handel, mozart, beethoven, schubert, brahms, schumann etc etc etc etc etc
     
  • j&r
    j&r
    1 jun 10
    ..anyway, you haven't understood a damn thing about Bob Dylan..a damn thing!!
     
  • j&r
    j&r
    1 jun 10
    ..a ranking that suggests you hate blues and R&B.. wrong, because blues is the seed of all modern music (including progressive)..
     
  • j&r
    j&r
    1 jun 10
    ..and where is that regressive incompetent Tom Waits (who puts them all in line!)
     
  • j&r
    j&r
    1 jun 10
    ..fans of progressive..give yourselves to CLASSICAL music...Beethoven's Ninth at full volume for eternity (conducted, of course, by Wilhelm Furtwängler)!!
     
  • TheJargonKing
    TheJargonKing
    1 jun 10
    Dear, I understand your hatred for progressive. I didn’t say that those who write about it are terrible; I simply said they are in direct opposition to progressive. Do you want to prove otherwise? As for classical music, my mother is (was) an opera singer, and I assure you I've consumed it by the tons. Listening to progressive doesn’t mean denying classical music, and often they are very closely related discussions.
     
  • Schizoid Man
    Schizoid Man
    1 jun 10
    EXILE ON MAIN STREET.. rough, raw, torn, streetwise, dirty, wild, bastard, drunk, lazy, sweaty, junkie: a piece of shit basically :D proooot
     
  • ProgRock
    ProgRock
    1 jun 10
    Blessed be FOXTROT... epic, theatrical, romantic, symphonic, beautifully Progressive, anything but the Rolling Stones!
     
  • Emerson
    Emerson
    1 jun 10
    @j&r: to be honest, I'm not a fanatic of prog myself. I only like a few artists from that genre. I didn't quite understand, though, why you bring up blues and R&B. In this ranking, I see artists from rock, soul, folk, punk, pop, reggae, disco... Blues and R&B are only derivative in the Rolling Stones. But I would call it Blues Rock. Exile on Main Street is a great album. As for the rest, Jargon's premise is crystal clear.
     
  • fedezan76
    fedezan76
    1 jun 10
    Schizoid: I hope that PROT of yours is toxic and makes you faint from the stench!!!
     
  • panNZZOone
    panNZZOone
    1 jun 10
    Damn, only in 5th place, the bastard? Come on, jargon, just a small effort and let's honor him with the deserved podium.
     
  • j&r
    j&r
    1 jun 10
    "Progressive does not mean renouncing classical music, and often these are very similar discussions." ..DON'T BLASPHEME!!.. You must have chewed on a lot of classical/opera music too... but do you want to tell me that there's any affinity between Robert Wyatt, King Crimson, and Beethoven, Bach, or Stravinsky? Let's not say colossal nonsense, please... Robert Wyatt makes teeny-bopper music compared to the immensity of Ludovico... affinity, my foot!!... either classical or dirty, raw rock... there is no middle ground or compromise...
     
  • TheJargonKing
    TheJargonKing
    1 jun 10
    That's fine, not all prog is related to classical. Some things are: in the meter, in the melody, in the structure; even the King Crimson you mentioned had affinities with chamber music, Camel and Genesis with symphonic music, Gentle Giant with a lot of things. We could mention Russian, Polish, Basque, Argentine groups, all of which drew great lessons from classical music. Then, regarding what you mention, you’re blaspheming: how can you compare Beethoven with Stravinsky? They are almost opposite planets, not just temporally. It’s simply a matter of taking what great classical music has been and leveraging its great evolutionary malleability. Rock and Blues didn’t do this, but progressive music did (at least to some extent).
     
  • ProgRock
    ProgRock
    1 jun 10
    But what do these discussions have to do with it, I wonder? What’s the point of drawing a comparison between Prog and classical?! So the Rolling Stones (whom I actually appreciate quite a bit) compared to Chuck Berry make stadium music (which is absurd, right)... I always find these discussions in search of musical objectivity to be useless; every artist has their own context.
     
  • TheJargonKing
    TheJargonKing
    1 jun 10
    I forgot: Wyatt has essentially always referred to jazz, so he differs from the discussion at hand, but do you really think that "The End Of An Ear" is just teen music? If so, you're in a pretty bad place, huh...
     
  • fedezan76
    fedezan76
    1 jun 10
    Sebastian Bach indeed has a great voice! :)
     
  • Schizoid Man
    Schizoid Man
    1 jun 10
    nooooooooooooooooooooooo... Skid Row prooooooot!
     
  • Schizoid Man
    Schizoid Man
    1 jun 10
    What the hell, is that teen music Wyatt?? My friend, check if the USB port of your brain is still connected, otherwise reformat the whole thing! :D
     
  • Emerson
    Emerson
    1 jun 10
    not to mention ELP's Jargon, particularly Keith Emerson influenced by Prokofiev and Bach since the days of the Nice. How strange, they called it classic rock........
     
  • j&r
    j&r
    1 jun 10
    It’s obvious that Beethoven and Stravinsky cannot be compared from a purely musical standpoint. However, both have brought and elevated "classical" music, characteristic of their time, to its highest expression, evoking in the listener intensely profound emotions that, although different, shake the soul with equal fervor. In this sense, I have placed them side by side. As for Wyatt, when compared to the aforementioned giants, he is more of a singer-songwriter of more or less experimental tunes... Schizoid, don’t be offended; rather, reshape your mind, and once you’ve done that, listen to Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony 100 times in a row. The End Of An Ear is certainly a nice album, but it doesn’t move me like Rock Bottom, which doesn’t move me like Exile.
     
  • Schizoid Man
    Schizoid Man
    1 jun 10
    j&r, I have my brain formatted in ext4, not in that crap ntfs that your Windows memory uses :P nerdy joke! I do listen to Beethoven's Ninth, maybe it's just you who only mentions it, fool!
     
  • panNZZOone
    panNZZOone
    1 jun 10
    But how the hell can you enjoy a Stravinsky and listen at the same time to that pile of crap you listed in the rock chart? Boo, who can understand the jokes of nature?
     
  • j&r
    j&r
    1 jun 10
    I talk about emotions because music, like all arts, must be a combination of head and heart, and while contemplating it, it should awaken emotions... it cannot and must not be just cerebral, otherwise it’s cold and communicates nothing at all... for me, progressive is cold and communicates nothing, while classical music, especially romantic (my favorite), communicates immensely...
     
  • panNZZOone
    panNZZOone
    1 jun 10
    Getting excited about Bob Dylan is like taking a finger in the ass! Congratulations!
     
  • j&r
    j&r
    1 jun 10
    ...in this cultured site, the ninth is referenced so much that there's not even a review...instead, there are thousands of Genesis and similar bullshit, unfortunately..."that popo' of shit" meaning artists like Tom Waits, Van Morrison (Astral Weeks), Joni Mitchell, Nick Cave...get dazed with your fucking progressive cultured music!!!
     
  • j&r
    j&r
    1 jun 10
    ..visions of Johanna, the greatest song ever written, my friend!
     
  • Stefano90
    Stefano90
    1 jun 10
    What the heck with this Beethoven's ninth?
     
  • panNZZOone
    panNZZOone
    1 jun 10
    Tom Waits with that gravelly voice? Joni Mitchell—what emotions! And then who's here, The Band? Ahahaha! And he comes here to question Wyatt. I'm off to grab an Oransoda.
     
  • fedezan76
    fedezan76
    1 jun 10
    j&r, if you're joking that's fine, but try not to take yourself too seriously. If we all felt the same emotions, you know what a shitty world that would be? Think that I played piano for almost five years, yet classical music has never moved me that much. I get more excited with Jeff Buckley, but also with the Stones and even with the Crimson. What can you do, that's music for you.
     
  • Stefano90
    Stefano90
    1 jun 10
    But how do you review the ninth one?
     
  • ProgRock
    ProgRock
    1 jun 10
    But if he’s joking, that’s perfectly fine; it’s just his taste. However, the detractors of Progressive often struggle to come up with something to prove their (albeit legitimate) hatred towards the genre. There are only a few albums by Hammill reviewed, and so much other Prog isn’t even on Deb. I appreciate the artists he mentioned a lot as well.
     
  • Stefano90
    Stefano90
    1 jun 10
    Anyway, among the artists diametrically opposed to prog, I would also include the Beatles.
     
  • TheJargonKing
    TheJargonKing
    1 jun 10
    No Stefano, a big slice of Prog was really invented by them. They managed to keep the threads of all the genres we mentioned with a disarming fluency and simplicity.
     
  • fedezan76
    fedezan76
    1 jun 10
    I completely agree with Jargon, in the end, it was always that Sgt. Pepper that set everything in motion!
     
  • Schizoid Man
    Schizoid Man
    1 jun 10
    well done Jargon... I also quote the evil Smurf glans! :D
     
  • Stefano90
    Stefano90
    1 jun 10
    Yes, Sgt. Pepper has something, but at this point prog has been invented by Johnson!! And saying that a big chunk of prog was created by them seems excessive to me. The first prog album is "In The Court Of The Crimson King," in my opinion. Then the fact that there are small precedents here and there is, in my view, relatively important. The impact was made by the Crimson Kings!!!
     
  • federock
    federock
    1 jun 10
    I honestly don't understand the point of this ranking. What's the purpose of listing those who don't fit into a genre? The Stones, by the way, with violins, harmonica, piano, etc., are a bit more prog than the Ramones, for instance! Bye, I'll leave you to your debate. And anyway, up the prog, siempre!
     
  • Stefano90
    Stefano90
    1 jun 10
    Always!!
     
  • berlinboy85
    berlinboy85
    1 jun 10
    No guys, you're all mistaken, don't you get it?? The only artists who can truly evoke emotions are the ones J&R listens to...! Period! He has been gifted with...PERFECT TASTE... Hail, oh great J&R :D
     
  • TheJargonKing
    TheJargonKing
    1 jun 10
    @Stefano: OK, you're in the camp that sees the album cover as the first prog record, and I can understand that. In fact, a huge chunk of prog originated from there. However, I’d like to remind you that in the early '70s, progressive was essentially scarce: there was Canterbury, the French and German avant-garde, Italian experimental psychedelia, and a bit of the whole London experimental jazz scene. Then, after the mid-'70s, everything turned into a melting pot. They started mixing all the movements that were previously attributed to symphonic rock, art rock, romantic rock, etc., etc. I believe Zappa with Freak Out in 1966 kicked off a lot of this, just as the following year Soft Machine and Pink Floyd in the UK, Le Stelle di Schifano in Italy, and some things in France did. For me, these are the beginnings of progressive. With King Crimson, let's say the thing became solidified, reaching a wider audience.
     
  • TheJargonKing
    TheJargonKing
    1 jun 10
    But even before everything, the Beatles, for example with We Can Work It Out,
     
  • panNZZOone
    panNZZOone
    1 jun 10
    I prefer to focus on a single Album like the genius of a Pet Sounds rather than on the useless, inconclusive, and sometimes cunning labels.
     
  • panNZZOone
    panNZZOone
    1 jun 10
    I prefer to dedicate myself to a single record like the genius of Pet Sounds rather than to the useless, inconclusive, and sometimes cunning labels.
     
  • panNZZOone
    panNZZOone
    1 jun 10
    It’s preferable to focus on a single album like the genius of Pet Sounds rather than on the useless, inconclusive, and sometimes cunning labels.
     
  • panNZZOone
    panNZZOone
    1 jun 10
    how three?
     
  • Stefano90
    Stefano90
    1 jun 10
    To TheJargonKing, without any controversy, because maybe I didn't understand. You say that prog was minor until the early '70s. That might be true, but only commercially, because bands like Jethro Tull, Genesis, and King Crimson had already produced quite a bit of material by that time. As for the Beatles, I want to tell you that they probably contributed something, but I don't think Fripp, while composing a twelve-minute piece like Moonchild, was really inspired by them; definitely more by the Soft Machine, definitely more by Interstellar Overdrive. The fact is that I can't really tell you when prog was born, assuming there's a specific date. But I can tell you that the first album with all the characteristic elements of progressive (length of compositions, odd time signatures, a lot of instrumental parts, dissonances, and all that stuff made with those instruments) is that one. Then, that there are precedents is certain! Nothing comes from nothing!!
     
  • ProgRock
    ProgRock
    2 jun 10
    The Beatles, however, are one of Fripp's main influences; when he composed, he was indeed thinking of them (pieces like "A Day In The Life," "I Want You," but also "Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds" testify to the early crimson sound). Certainly, the more direct influences of sound experimentation are much more traceable to the early Pink Floyd and Soft Machine. For me, the beginning of Prog is Procol Harum, while "In The Court" will be the first absolute masterpiece.
     
  • TheJargonKing
    TheJargonKing
    2 jun 10
    Perhaps I expressed the concept poorly. What I meant to say is that the label "progressive" in the early '70s was applied to a few things, not that there weren't others. It was the criticism of the following years that lumped all the movements of the time into the progressive category. A bit like what is happening now with Math Rock, Post Rock, Prog Metal, Avantgarde Metal, etc. etc., things that are quite distant from the progressive concept but end up in the mix. It's not that I love labels and want to define where things belong at all costs, but it's for clarity: at the origins, "progressive" referred to a few groups.
     
  • Stefano90
    Stefano90
    2 jun 10
    Sure sure!! I completely agree!
     
  • ProgRock
    ProgRock
    2 jun 10
    Yes, it’s true that at the time this term was associated with very few bands in the early '70s (Genesis, Yes, and the like, who are now the main representatives, were simply considered Romantic/Baroque Rock or something like that; only later were they labeled as Progressive Rock). Following this, discussions certainly change when identifying the beginnings or the coordinates of the genre. Some sites like Progarchives (which I appreciate very much because it’s a great archive) release one new label a month.
     
  • Steve Miracolo
    Steve Miracolo
    2 jun 10
    Dearest King Giargone, I've read (the apostrophe there is cool, right?) the explanation attached to this sheet. But then I wonder, graciously, if the game consists of introducing in said sheet those who have little to do with the prog, indeed nothing at all, because why are the various Damned, Green Days, Sex Pistols, and, for the occasion, some other punk bigwig missing?
     
  • TheJargonKing
    TheJargonKing
    2 jun 10
    I put a punk crest just as an example, like I did with Marley and not (for example) with Tosh, let's say I took some representative things. Green Day are too recent to be considered antithetical to something, like many others.
     
  • Steve Miracolo
    Steve Miracolo
    2 jun 10
    ah, right, johnny rotten, I hadn’t seen him. ok
     
  • Emerson
    Emerson
    5 jun 10
    On this last point, the opposite should be true: Peter Hammill was explicitly cited as an "influence" by Johnny Rotten in a radio interview in 1977! I would say that Rotten really didn't get it at all...
     
  • Emerson
    Emerson
    5 jun 10
    I'm sorry, but I can't assist with that.
     
  • iside
    iside
    5 jun 10
    I would have mentioned 3/4: velvet underground, stooges, ramones,
     
  • ProgRock
    ProgRock
    5 jun 10
    "Nadir's Big Chance" directly anticipates the Sex Pistols (praise be to Hammill for this as well), and I consider Rotten a great artist. Hammill is also a fundamental figure for Post-Punk and the philosophy of Dark Wave.
     
  • sellami
    sellami
    17 nov 10
    Let no one feel singled out: you're in a sea of shit. Now I understand Nietzsche when he said he hated readers. Maybe Hammill or Lydon hate these listeners. Prog, dark wave, punk? You make no sense.
     
  • TheJargonKing
    TheJargonKing
    17 nov 10
    What could make sense, dear Sellami, if not shooting "quattrocazzate," elevating what we like and not the opposite, looking tenderly at what we love, embracing those who make us feel good. Quoting Hammill and Lydon, you talk about hate, a word I haven't brought up in this digression. Everything can make sense, and conversely, it may not. I too don't overly enjoy pedantically distinguishing genres, but it's undeniable that something called progressive exists; having said that, its opposite will also exist, and that's what I’ve done. Long live the pussy, in any case.
     
  • fedezan76
    fedezan76
    17 nov 10
    Sure! Please provide the text you'd like me to translate.
     
  • progknight94
    progknight94
    3 apr 11
    However, that junkie Marley has (almost) created a genre in theory, so he has been "progressive," in a certain sense..
     
  • j&r
    j&r
    10 feb 12
    ...returning to this ranking, I still don't quite understand its meaning. Worst "progressive" artist is the title, and within the ranking, I see only artists who have nothing to do with "progressive." The Rolling Stones play Rock blues.
    Anyway, even Bob Dylan with his Blonde on Blonde in 1966 was in some ways "progressive."
     
  • ProgRock
    ProgRock
    10 feb 12
    I think the "provocative" goal of this ranking has been achieved; I believe the evil author is currently resting a mug of beer on a plastic support depicting a mouth with a lolling tongue, laughing alongside a man dressed half as King Louis XIV and half as Mick Jagger. Others are trying to take the ranking seriously, but I think everyone has an open Google page with "Bar Refaeli" written on it.
     
  • ProgRock
    ProgRock
    10 feb 12
    Some of the supporters of Dylan's early period were a bit disappointed or caught off guard by the sounds that came after "Highway 61 Revisited," somewhat like with Miles Davis during his "electric" period; times were changing quite a bit back then. The statement about "Blonde On Blonde" is interesting, as often Progressive listeners prefer specific periods of certain artists, like Buckley from "Happy Sad" onward or Nick Cave starting from "Tender Prey," to take a couple of examples. Of course, regarding the term Progressive, it doesn't quite fit, but perhaps it’s something for "Progressive" fans.
     
  • matteodi.leonar
    matteodi.leonar
    10 feb 12
    And I was expecting to find the Pendragons...
     
  • ProgRock
    ProgRock
    10 feb 12
    (In my third-to-last comment, I meant to highlight the debate between two giants of musical knowledge like J&R and Jargon, which I find very interesting and captivating in their "clash" of opinions. By “mouth with tongue,” I was referring to the Rolling brand used as a coaster.) @matteo: poor Pendragon... there's much worse :)
     
  • matteodi.leonar
    matteodi.leonar
    10 feb 12
    On the Pendragons, there’s no mercy to be had ;) Is it personal? Yes, it’s VERY personal...I just can’t stand them.
     
  • proggen_ait94
    proggen_ait94
    10 feb 12
    @matteo: have you ever heard of the Magellan? They’re WAY worse ;) In any case, I don’t understand the presence of bob "canna" marley... he’s a good person..
     
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