ajejebrazorf

Dave was talking about the popularity of gentle giants, which was already lower than that of Genesis, I thought that was clear. I didn’t express any opinion regarding their value.

@lord: even John Coltrane remains in the background compared to Madonna, in terms of visibility and copies sold. This is true in the world of those who don't care about music and hear names on television, or think that the value of musicians is determined by the number of copies sold. In the world of those who actually listen to music, of critics, of written words, to say that Canterbury (and Wyatt in particular) are second rate is a solemn nonsense. Besides, you skew the argument quite a bit, because if you exclude the usual suspects (King Crimson, Genesis, Van der Graaf, Yes, and to a lesser extent Gentle Giant, Jethro Tull, and Emerson Lake & Palmer), the rest is either largely niche or very niche. Still, you do say one thing that's right: Genesis are indeed more popular than any Canterbury group, precisely because they are more commercial and, as you put it with a exquisitely technical definition, "less of a pain in the ass" (not at all compared to groups like Caravan, Hatfield, Camel, which remain very accessible and with a pop sensibility). This certainly doesn’t mean they are better, because otherwise it would imply that Shostakovich is inferior to Oasis for being less accessible and more of a pain in the ass. On the contrary, Genesis are a very pop group and while they seem immediately more pleasing (which for me in the long run also translates into a certain cloyingness, though, the dark side of "pleasant") than Wyatt and company, they are also inevitably less profound than the major works of the Canterbury bands. Ah, and it's also a big load of nonsense that they are more complete than Wyatt, and here you can see that you know him quite superficially, given the variety of things he has done.

Alright, I forgot a few commas and created some neologisms like "risperro." Now I’m copy-pasting and correcting, so that even humans can understand.

@lord: even john coltrane remains in the background compared to madonna, in terms of visibility and copies sold. This is true in the world of those who aren't interested in music and hear names on television, or think that the value of musicians is determined by the copies sold. In the world, however, of those who listen to music, the critics, and the written words, saying that caterbury (and wyatt in particular) are secondary is a solemn nonsense.

Besides, you're distorting the discussion a bit, because if we exclude the usual suspects (King Crimson, Genesis, Van der Graaf, Yes, and to a lesser extent Gentle Giant, Jethro Tull, and Emerson Lake and Palmer), the rest is more or less niche or very niche stuff. However, you do say something right: Genesis are indeed more popular than any Canterbury group, and precisely because they are more "pop" and, as you put it with an exquisitely technical definition, "less of a pain in the ass" (not discounting groups like Caravan, Hatfield, or Camel, which remain very accessible and have a pop sensibility). That doesn't mean they're better, because otherwise it would imply that Shostakovich is inferior to Oasis for being less accessible and more of a pain.

On the contrary, Genesis is a very pop group and while they are immediately more pleasant (which, for me over time, translates into a certain cloyingness, though, the dark side of "pleasant") than Wyatt and company, they are also inevitably less profound than the major works of the Canterbury musicians. Oh, and it's also a big load of nonsense that they are more complete than Wyatt, and here you can see that you know him rather superficially, given the variety of things he has done.

"The Canterbury scene has always been somewhat secondary, certainly less successful than true progressive rock. Now, I don’t hate the Canterburians (or whatever you call them), quite the opposite, but just juxtaposing names like Caravan and Genesis... Sure. Add to that the secondary and less successful Robert Wyatt alongside Genesis."

ale87, what is this nonsense you just wrote? Are you serious?

Ah, about the other conversation, if you are referring to the one about the "message," I haven't chimed in again but I found your contribution reasonable and shareable (regarding the fact that a text in a piece absolutely carries its weight and cannot be disregarded as part of the work). I misunderstood initially, and I didn't reply, but I agreed with what you had said, so from that perspective, I think we see it the same way.

No, why would I? In fact, he was one of the very first musicians I loved... it's just that I will always prefer pieces like "La città vecchia" or "Il testamento." I think, for example, of the contrast between the message of the final verses of "La città vecchia" with that universal pietas, compared to those of "smisurata preghiera" that seem more schematic to me (the good-humble and the rich-evil).

You know, perhaps it's the desire to be almost a manifesto of thought that somehow clashes with me. It's hard for me to explain; I think of (hoping you know them) the Skiantos, who went from being an intelligent group that made silly songs to a terribly pointless group because at a certain point they took it upon themselves to clarify to the world that even though their songs seemed stupid, they were actually engaged provocations. In a way, it seems to me that Smisurata preghiera, with its slogans (always full of poetry, always classy, always elegantly refined), is doing a bit of the same operation.

I need to get something off my chest: for me "Smisurata Preghiera" is the most overrated song in De André's repertoire, much less sincere than many other songs by Faber (and despite the division of roles, I don’t know why but I perceive it as more Fossatian). The album as a whole, however, is beautiful, with "Creuza de Ma" being my favorite and the most refined. In hindsight, I must say that the songs I like the most are perhaps the darker ones, like "Disamistade" or "Ho visto Nina volare," while those I liked more years ago, like "Princesa" or "Khorakane," I've somewhat (relatively) reassessed…