lux

Alfredo; as an appendix to my and Larrok's discussion: it's really hard to listen to a TDS in a fun and energetic way, unless you only focus on the electronic rhythms, abstracting them from the overall sound context, trying to catch the more danceable ones.. but that would be a huge and unnecessary simplification :-(

Caz: in fact, I only brought PHM closer to DM because in Trent's first work, the legacy of synth pop and the feeling of the 80s was still traceable. Regarding the lyrics, I've never said they were brilliant, but rather functional to what was being musically conveyed, where it was the music that legitimized the lyrics because if one of us were to start screaming "terrible lie," we would probably be seen as a fanatic, whereas the mood he created (musically) in the pieces made even rather standardized proclamations credible. This is because it took on a value that was not only artistic but also cultural; it is a true piece of sociopsychological postmodernism. However, let’s not forget verses like the final lines of "I Do Not Want This," representing not only adolescent disturbances but also the frustrations of a man aware of the destruction of every certainty. And anyway, Trent always spoke from within, from someone who personally experienced certain turmoils; he wasn’t an observer, and necessarily his lyrics were as direct and clear as we are when we get angry and want to punch someone in the face.

Also because, if you think about it for a moment, how can you listen to an existential monolith like TDS with the same superficiality as you would dance along to a My Sharona? It’s precisely Trent's work that demands a necessarily conscious and conceptual engagement.

Alfredo, I think that when we talk, we must necessarily plug in and not babble aimlessly, especially when we’re forced to call someone a bimbominchia because we can’t come up with a reply. Of course, there are different levels of evaluation regarding any aspect of life, but there are analyses and analyses. By now, I've internalized the enjoyment of any record; the attempt is to grasp its broader meaning. Also, if my goal were solely to shake my ass, I would be listening to Europe and Toto by now. As for TDS, let’s say it motivates me to move my butt, my heart, and my brain precisely because it's original.

What do you say, Alfrè?

"I’m happy to listen if we talk about music, not fan nonsense or adolescent stuff" ---> I, on the other hand, am waiting with boredom for YOU to start talking about music, after ten posts of fluff.

"Lux, in my opinion, you don't know much about DM...Period!"----> in my opinion, however, your frustration at being unable to argue is pretty evident. "And you take for granted a backdrop of bullshit, which may even be true, but you certainly will never know..."----> what I know is that the hedonistic arrangements of Violator aren't even worth half the nihilistic charge of those of the first Trent. After all, it's enough to do a little research to recognize the importance of TDS in the history of 90s rock (and beyond). Although, to be honest, all it would take is to clean out your ears.

Alexander, start showing me that you at least have a middle school diploma, since your counterarguments are worthy of an infant. Everyone knows that Reznor did drugs, even your grandmother, and it's true that he profited from it. And indeed, as soon as he took on the pose of a poser, the quality of his work plummeted drastically. However, he became a subject AFTER he got clean, because he continued to narrate a pain that clearly no longer belonged to him. Or more simply, he lost his ideas and inspiration. Of course, IT’S NOT ENOUGH to attempt suicide to create masterpieces; it’s not an automatic equation. One can be a mediocre artist and still have attempted suicide. My reference to Trent's drug usage period was to counter your theory that Reznor has always profited from it. Just listen to TDS (the drug period) and then The Slip (nicely sober), to notice that reality is much more multifaceted than you imply.

If they have analogies (as you yourself admit), how could I have been presumptuous? Two different approaches to synth pop: on one side PHM, on the other, I don't know, Some Great Reward (the more industrial one, let's say)... you decide which one you prefer at this point, I've already expressed my concepts.

But for god's sake, Alexander, do you know what Reznor was thinking when he composed TDS? Do you know what the downward spiral means? Do you know that back then he was a lost addict? Have you ever read a full lyric of TDS, or did you just stop at the choruses? The Ministry themselves, with their seminal albums (but precisely because they are seminal, they seem incomplete compared to Trent's greater work, who was also an aesthetician of noise), but where does PSALM 69 stand compared to TDS? Not even The Mind Is A Terrible Thing To Taste can compete (even though it’s still a fundamental work for certain sounds), the Ministry were still too "provincial," too rooted in a violence that was more ostentatious than suffered, their metal riffs were still simply metal (they lacked synthesis), dragging pieces for 6 minutes when they could easily last 3.. sure they launched ideas taken from Reznor himself, but did they really develop them.. reworking is another matter. That doesn’t take away from the fact that certain works of theirs are definitely worth listening to, despite the imperfections. But at this point, you could have mentioned Foetus more than the Ministry. Regarding Depeche Mode, the main sonic aspect is undoubtedly the vocal line, the melody of the voice; they were vain, come on, but can we compare the electronics of Violator (evidently pure embellishment to the voice) with the psychological hell found in I Do Not Want This, Big Man With a Gun, Eraser, fuck!? Which pieces seem more artistically ambitious to you, oh? Do we really need to discuss the obvious?