lux

Ajeje, I presume I don't get it, because the whole world claims it's a masterpiece. But then I stop and say to myself, "I can't convince myself that I like it, because BB smells bad to me." So, personally, it's an album I don't like. I don't deny its historical importance, but I am convinced that historical importance transcends the communicative quality of the album itself, for a reason I'm not explaining now because I would go on too long. "I say that the history of expressiveness is nonsense" okay, I understand, but I absolutely disagree, and I say instead that expressiveness is very, very important; otherwise, a record by Symphony X would be nice too. And expressiveness, as I understand it, I don't find in BB. It's not malice, but if I tell you that some of my favorite albums are Repeater by Fugazi, Yes by Morphine, Down Colorful Hill by Red House Painters, New Day Rising by Husker Du, The Modern Dance by Pere Ubu, TDS by Nin, Fresh Fruit For Rotting Vegetables by Dead Kennedys, Loveless by MBV, You're Living All Over Me by Dinosaur Jr., you shouldn't be surprised if some of the intellectual and convoluted patterns (because that's what they are) of the sax, bass, and flute in "Slightly All Time" don't communicate much to me, because there's extreme coherence in that. "Slow and dreamy" are only some points of the piece at the limit, not others. And anyway, a piece can be self-referential even if it’s slow. I didn't get stubborn; I stated my opinion. Then I had to reiterate my point more and more because you seemed like you were taken aback hearing my opinion and started with the "objective nonsense" story. We always end up there. I reiterate that I don't love relativism, and in certain situations, I prefer "theories." Take this opinion of mine on BB as a “personal theory," which I don't want to impose on anyone, but I also don't want people to define it as objective nonsense. Because that's when I start responding poorly.

Ahah, what are you talking about? To me, Slightly all time in some parts is a raspone for sax because that's the effect it has on me, but what do you want me to say, that I have to like it? Would you prefer that I said "Slightly all time is objectively self-referential in certain points"? No, I humbly say that FOR ME it is. I don't care about being right; you are the one who is adamant against my ideas because you clearly can't accept that someone might criticize certain albums or certain tracks. "Anyway, you could have said right away that you wanted to be right for sure," ahah, but all of this is hilarious, really. This discussion is surreal :-D Do I want to convince others, ME???? But I even said that I would listen to some albums you recommended, and my judgment on jazz remains suspended! If you had calmly said, "I consider BB a physical and visceral album," I wouldn't have said anything at all. Instead, you came out with the story of my supposed "objective nonsense," shifting the discussion to a much more tense and nervous channel, and I, of course, responded in kind, reiterating that I thought in a certain way and you needed to stay calm. Ajeje, I think you really got tangled up. It’s no coincidence that, in the end, everyone understood (Alfredo and the others) that mine was a simple personal opinion, and the only one to continue this discussion was you, with the story of my "objective nonsense" ;-)

Now it's me who wants to be right? Ajeje, I think it's getting late, huh.

Your last post, if I may say, is delirious: A: "and if you make chilling generalizations, you have to expect that others might tell you you're wrong"--- You insist on these "generalizations," but I'm talking about the Jazz records I've listened to (I've become a broken record, having to repeat the same things over and over). You told me that I say "objectively nonsense," and that's rude, it's presumptuous, it's not a discussion. Here, the one who wants to be right at all costs is you, not me. I don't know if you've noticed. "It's useless to then take refuge behind the absolute subjectivity of 'for me it's like this'--- ah and what should I say? I think so, what do you want me to tell you, oh? But do you understand that you want to impose your ideas on me and nothing else? You want me to say "BB is objectively awful," to sound important like you do? No, here the objectifying claims are yours. For now, I just limit myself to doubting its communicativeness based on my idea of messaging in music.

No sorry, but you’ve completely misunderstood everything. First thing: "BB beats them." No. And I’m telling you yes, just look. If you want to objectify your feelings and undermine mine, we’re in for it. Besides (how many times have I repeated this?) as far as I’m concerned, it’s not the groove that determines expressiveness. Even some tracks from the latest Red Hot Chili Peppers can have "groove," but they are useless tracks, because they are inflated and incapable of "telling" anything to the listener. I never said that my favorite instrumentals are those I mentioned, never said. Don’t distort my posts. I said I prefer them to BB’s tracks, which is very, very different. And I took those three solid albums as a comparison to have a homogeneous reference. I could have picked "Return to Hot Chicken," a 1 minute and 39 seconds instrumental by Yo La Tengo, or "Along the Banks of Rivers" by Tortoise, or "James Whale" by Tuxedomoon, or "These Fleeting Moments" (which I obviously consider an instrumental) by Black Tape for a Blue Girl or "Buildings Began to Stretch Wide Across the Sky, and the Air Filled With a Reddish Glow" by Red Sparowes, but they didn’t seem relevant to BB’s tracks. I used the humble attribute for "Moon In June," not for "Facelift." "Slightly All Time" tends to definitely be a raspy piece made up of sax (at least in certain parts). "This does not change the fact that you started from an atypical album like BB to theorize about an entire genre." I haven’t just listened to BB, and my "theory" referred to the albums I’ve listened to.

Not only tastes, of course, but also opinions.

"You bring out Facelift and Ebene, which are as cerebral and indulgent as it gets." They aren't the most brainy out there; BB beats them. In fact, I prefer them because they communicate at least a little to me. This is what I think, of course.

Did you ask me for my favorite track/tracks from the three albums I mentioned? I answered you. Now do you realize that "Moon in June" is not instrumental? So what? Those 4 pieces are in "Third," and I chose my favorites from those 4 pieces. The other tracks I mentioned seem to be instrumental. Now I'll repeat it for you, maybe you missed it the first time: "it gives me the impression of being terribly self-satisfied music" = I have the impression (it can only be an impression, as I’ve listened a few times) that it is terribly self-satisfied music. Don’t worry, if I had been certain I would have written "It's terribly self-satisfied music." Do you see a "whole" somewhere? I don’t. I have never been interested in generalizing; certainly, there is a fear that much jazz work may align with those I’ve heard. But "all jazz," I repeat, is your expression, not mine. You’re fixating on a concept that I haven’t used, and you’ve been doing this for a few posts now. It's no coincidence that I’ve always limited myself to discussing BB, and not "all jazz." If I spoke of "Jazz," it was to refer to the records I’ve listened to.

Try using expressions like "objectively bullshit" with other users, let's see how many tell you off, and how many send you kisses.

Jazz according to the albums I've listened to = I'm referring to the albums I've listened to. "All jazz" is your expression, not mine. My favorite tracks from Alpha Centauri = Sunrise in the Third System and title track (albeit excessively long for my tastes), my favorite track from Irrlicht = Ebene (another little brick), despite the apparent saturation it conveys, it transmits at least to me an apocalyptic and dynamic anxiety. Favorite tracks from Third = Facefilt and Moon In June, with the latter fitting more into a "humble" progressive style, and both undoubtedly more cerebral and down-to-earth for me. Slightly All The Time is, as you can well imagine, the one I enjoy listening to the least. I was obviously not referring to Alessio's comment about Nirvana, but to the previous one regarding respect for others' tastes and the implicit idea of not imposing one's beliefs on those who have different ideas.