Mike76

Ah, the "noisy evolutions" at the end of the 70s were present in England as well, but they were so radical that musicologists classified them under the label "industrial music."

Yes, Velvet Underground, but John Cale is Welsh... anyway, apart from Eno's productions for Devo, Talking Heads, and "No New York," there have been bands that reinterpreted JD and P.I.L. like Savage Republic, and then there are funny cases like A Certain Ratio, who, influenced in part by American black music, contributed to the birth of New York punk-funk like Liquid Liquid and ESG. But these are indeed early '80s things, and if you think everything worth saying was already said in the '70s, you might not be very interested. I find that reducing such a complex and multifaceted (anti) genre like New Wave to just a handful of records released in '77 is a bit like saying that "Trout Mask Replica" is the only rock album worth listening to.

That theory which claims that the English Wave is just a bad copy of the American one is also an exaggeration; let’s say they were two communicating vessels that influenced each other (just think about what the Englishman Eno did in the USA). Moreover, the influences of the English wave include Bowie, Roxy Music, and especially (for both scenes) Krautrock. From what I understand, you have a problem with European romanticism, but whether you like it or not, it is part of this continent’s history and it’s no coincidence that it shows up in music as well. However, I admit that after '81-'82, the wave records worth mentioning became fewer and fewer, a physiological factor that happens to all genres anyway.

I think, however, that if we remove the "dark trilogy" from the Cure's discography, then the Smiths band becomes little more than a good and original pop band that would hardly have left the mark it has. Then yes, opinions and perspectives are respectable, but if that thing poorly called dark was all “lagna ed esibizionismo del dolore,” then using the same measure I can say the same thing about the blues of American blacks, while I can define psychedelia as “esibizionismo di viaggi tossici,” punk as “esibizionismo di maleducazione e protesta,” etc., etc. and they all seem to me to be positions that are it’s euphemistic to say not very balanced, even though I obviously agree that bad and useless records always outnumber the significant ones. Then again, perspectives are personal, so one can also disdain "Pornography" while appreciating Verdena at the same time, if one wishes; however, I have a different idea of good music.

The Virgin Prunes were completely bonkers, while I knew that good old Venerdì had dabbled in soundtracks, but I'm not familiar with his solo discography. Great reception.

The last thing I wanted was to come across as a learned commentator and rattle off dates and names, but you and Lewis pushed me into it. If I thought like you, I could say that the Sex Pistols arrived a year after the Ramones, a month and a week after the Damned, etc., etc., and therefore aren't worth anything. But, regardless of whether I like them or not (and, deep down, I kinda do), I don't deny their historical importance and the influence they had on generations of musicians (and maybe even on our Maurizio). I just wanted to highlight the paradox of the criticisms of Chrisma that you and others posted here; if you don't consider the Chrisma, who released a new wave record in '77, as "ahead," then the Pistols were pure retrograde. I see it differently: in '77, the Pistols were current while Chrisma were ahead.

And you too, Lewis, please... first of all, the groups you mention do different things from each other; it's only us, in hindsight, who throw them all into the same "new wave" pot just to bring some order (or chaos) to the mix. Then, to be picky, 1977 is the debut LP year for both Talking Heads and Chrisma, as well as TV and Wire, while the debut of Ubu actually came the year after. As for Blondie, yes, they arrived first, but they are also the least innovative and most modest group in the bunch.

Well, today I discovered that B-52's, Joy Division, P.i.l., Siouxie, Savage Republic, Devo, Pere Ubu, Mx-80 Sound, Talking Heads, Ultravox! and Tubeway Army are useless bands because they came after Neu!. You never stop learning, thanks for the lesson :-) Could it be that all the rock'n'roll that came after "Rock Around the Clock" by Bill Haley is also useless...

Well, of course I was foolish; Christianity was born 2,000 years ago when the Roman Empire was around... it was obvious that when you referred to the invasions of Middle Eastern nomadic peoples, you were talking about an earlier time. Now that you mention the cults of the Great Mother, it reminds me of the religious figurines depicting a voluptuous woman, a fertility deity in short, that I saw during a trip to Malta. It really does seem like machismo is something imported! :-)

Um, sorry to interrupt... Easycure writes partly relatable things, but as we've discussed before, I think their position is so critical of the new wave and the so-called dark, particularly because they've played covers of The Cure for all the clubs in Italy and had to endure the same people dressed in black dancing to the same songs from the same bands for years. So I totally understand they might feel a bit nauseous, especially since for a drummer playing "Figurehead" must be quite a drag :-)
Probably if Easy were the drummer of a band that only plays covers of psychedelic or punk groups, they would reach the same level of nausea for those genres.
However, I absolutely have to contest them on one point: when I say "trendy," I mean something that follows the current trend to achieve success without adding anything new, and it seems to me that no record from the so-called dark trilogy of The Cure can be defined in this way (sure, maybe "Pornography" exaggerates a bit, perhaps it starts to be somewhat dark, but it is still musically innovative). Unlike Lucarandi80, though, I don't see "Seventeen Seconds" and "Faith" (my favorite) as trips to hell; rather, I find them very adolescent (in the best sense of the term), albums that convey the insecurity, the confusion, the even violent disappointments of those who are about to become adults and find themselves without certainties. For this reason, I find them very different from the masterpieces of P.i.l. or Joy Division.
Finally, we need to avoid repeating the tired argument of "it came later, so it’s worthless," otherwise if "Pornography" is worth nothing because it came two years after "Closer," then "Suicide" isn't a masterpiece because it arrived nine years after the Silver Apples.