bogusman

Then, (and now it gets personal) I find it strange how you find Mother Feathered so enigmatic... To me, that song, perhaps more than others, "speaks": the images flow clear and precise, and I focus on every detail of that (non)story. Of course, if you demand a complete and reassuring understanding, a total possession of it, I don't think MP can give you that. I don’t know how to explain it; it’s quite irrational, but when I listen to it, "it's right in front of me."

At first, I found this review a bit too harsh myself, but then I convinced myself that it was quite in line with the subject matter. It seems degrading to give a "grade" to such an aseptic and cold work, and anyway it seemed clear enough to me that behind my brief analysis there was a strong appreciation. Regarding your statements about the enigmatic nature of Dg, I respond by saying that this is your personal opinion, because it is a fact that the appearance is presented to the public in a more "closed" way compared to the previous one (absence of texts, white cover, music that is much more aseptic and "abstract"). What you misunderstand (or maybe I wasn't clear, but I accounted for that :-)) is that this opacity is, in my view, a shortcoming. It is absolutely not; on the contrary, I believe this record lives in its own frosty perfection and lends itself to listening in a less appealing way compared to DG. You say I'm being Pilate? I didn’t think it was right to go into details, illustrate the images, "describe" the contents; I preferred to maintain a certain distance while trying to grasp the project behind this work, and all in all, I think I succeeded.

I forgot my grade, and maybe it's for the best.

I think that in the analysis of a musical phenomenon (taking only this aspect of the matter into account), one should make a kind of average between the a posteriori analysis of "charisma" and that focused purely on the aesthetic value of the work. In my opinion, they made the qualitative leap starting in 1965, and in this case, it makes sense to talk about value in itself (Rubber Soul as the first actual pop album in the history of rock); much of what they did before is an inextricable mix of pure genius, effective commercial strategies in a barely virgin market, and why not, a pinch of luck. If the Beatles had stopped at the time of Help, would they have enjoyed such immense respect among their more "wild" peers?

"what does their influence have to do with the value of the work itself??": it has a lot to do with it. It depends on the point of view from which you analyze the work. I can't see an album as an abstract object floating in space; in my opinion, context matters, the influences that other artists have had on the work in question, the impact that the work has on others, and then of course the aesthetic evaluations that depend on each person's taste/culture/etc.

ehem.. it's better to leave the merchants alone, otherwise we’ll have to talk about maicolgeccson or pavarotti&friends. Sorry Odradek, I quoted your expression verbatim unintentionally, I wasn't exactly referring to your post, nor to the concepts you express, which I partially share.
My point of view is that of a layman, occasionally in love with some Beatlesque sounds, who, however, cannot stand certain widespread dogmatic views according to which anything that has left an indelible mark must necessarily be a masterpiece. For what it's worth, I personally find some songs by XTC more interesting than certain pieces by the Beatles themselves that they quote, copy, and devour the Beatles sound.
Sgt Pepper is an absolute masterpiece along with Rubber Soul and Revolver, but it’s a bit frustrating to think about how many English and American Psych groups from that era have been pushed into the shadows by some rather bulky best sellers (and here I agree with Mi bloody).

thank you odradek!

"WHY they have become a standard": I do not deny the genius of the initial formula (certainly blessed by the goddess of luck), even though I believe the most significant things are those from the mid-60s. However, I can't see the fact that their songs are hummed by everyone around the globe as a VALUE in itself. Those are mercifications subsequent to the work of merchants, etc. I think a great value lies in albums like Sgt. Pepper or Revolver, or in the fact that they have influenced the musical writing of countless artists.

The fact that the Beatles are synonymous with music for ages 8 to 80 doesn’t seem like a strong argument for defense in the rock realm, and it is undeniable that they set a "standard" for better or worse. I find it interesting, beyond the sports fandom, to analyze how the music scene subsequently digested the Beatles phenomenon (which undeniably had an impact), how there were attempts to renounce it, and what its legacies have been in the decades that followed. But excuse me, My Bloody, saying that the Beatles were a weapon of the system to slow down the ongoing changes seems like a rather outdated discourse...

bloody: 1. I don't see the act of following as necessarily a shortcoming, especially if the result is still different and (in another way) significant. Personally, it's precisely the combination of (unwitting?) retro elements and study tricks that fascinates me. If you take away Martin's sounds, what remains are tunes, but the fact is that those sounds existed and still exist!!!
2. We all know that the rock of the late '60s was experimenting with new forms, but I believe that this type of experimentation wasn't the only possible one, and that the Beatles also made a substantial contribution in that sense, even though they didn't compose any Sister Ray. I detest arguments like "history is written by the victors" or "if they became a cultural phenomenon, then they are great," and I'm not even an integralist fanatic of the Beatles (I agree with your reasoning regarding their early and late phases), but I believe that the value of this album is not just historical and/or cultural.
Ah, yes... I remembered that the sonic idea of Pet Sounds was born precisely from listening to Rubber Soul (1965)...