Stoney

And to think that these guys are considered one of the most mainstream pop groups in America, just like here we see Vasco as pop and mainstream... it really makes you think a lot, doesn’t it?

You're mistaken, Ktulu; for me, it's perfectly fine if someone listens to whatever the hell they want. To "appreciate" a work, it’s not necessary to overthink what it means, what’s behind it, and the contexts from which it comes; you can appreciate it purely for fun, to show off, or to feel sad or happy for your own personal reasons and whatever crosses your mind. However, the discourse (at least mine) was and is on a completely different level, namely: are we sure that the enthusiasm in judging these albums as absolute masterpieces isn’t at least partially influenced by having heard people praise them for 15 years, for reasons that have nothing to do with art, music, beauty, etc.? In other words: are we sure this isn’t at all the artistic product we talk so much about, but only a particularly successful example of commerciality applied to a sector that is often considered to be outside of trends/commerce/etc.? I believe it is, and quite a lot, as happens for about 99% of the music circulating today. What I find bold is to see someone claiming to extract it from this context and comparing it to the great works of art in history, providing rich examples full of citations (Keats, Greek literature, etc.) in an attempt to demonstrate that I&W is even an album that evokes archetypes of ABSOLUTE beauty. Suddenly we’ve forgotten that Keats was read and appreciated by an "elite" of intellectuals who had a cultural background similar to his, who knew poetry and lived the cultural trends of their time, while today the DTs are played and appreciated by a varied audience, including many people who consume music amateurishly and often lack a comprehensive historical, cultural, and musical vision: the so-called mass music, which is based on mass culture, adapted to the simple tastes of the larger public, which with its opinions (and often its fanaticism) helps to create further trends and similar opinions. Do you understand, Ktulu, what I mean now? It’s not that I didn’t understand what you said; on the contrary, I understood it very well, but to me, it’s a statement out of touch with reality. And I really have no reasons to argue why I&W is nothing "beautiful" like a Greek urn or a statue: this is not something "provable," like a theorem in geometry or mathematical analysis. It is, I repeat, primarily a matter of musical sensitivity and also a bit of common sense. Without that, we could say everything and its opposite, and everything would risk turning into an endless lesson in art history "de noantri" where more and more illustrious names would be dragged out in a futile attempt to prove the impossible. Regards.

Alexander77... that's the point. Being skilled in the best technical abilities does not in any way mean being capable of inventiveness, so to answer your question: yes, it is possible that even with all that technique they cannot avoid being derivative and clichéd. There is no correlation between technique and intuition, and I believe this is true for every human discipline, as well as for music. It's like saying that someone good at calculations must be able to come up with new mathematical theories. Personally, I am deeply convinced that those musicians who spend their lives studying technique upon technique are often the least capable of inventing because they fall prey to mental patterns and executing routines. If they indeed had something to communicate, they would take a bit of technique here and there and adapt it to their mood, paying greater attention to touch and melodic exploration to expand their expressive repertoire instead of dedicating themselves to the usual artificial acrobatics where only the executional cleanliness is improved.

Ktulu. After a review and 140 comments of explanations, there are two possibilities: either I am truly incapable of arguing, or my interlocutor only reads what he wants. You choose.

Alexander, "I believe that his seeming aseptic quality is inversely proportional to how much he gets on your nerves," and immediately after, "I don't think it sounds aseptic... the drum fills are gorgeous." So let’s just say that the drum fills are gorgeous in direct proportion to how much you like it, and that's that. And in the end, you also gave the usual speech that concludes with the usual cliché "tastes are tastes, so de gustibus..."

I quote the latest comment from Larrok.

Alexander77, doesn't it surprise you that there is all this unjustified fanaticism for DT? If they really are a valid group as you say, why are their listeners largely excited kids? Or do you want to tell me that this isn't true, or that it happens with other groups (which is true, okay, but not at these levels)? I mean, why does fanaticism for DT always have to border on the pathetic, while fanaticism for other groups (I mentioned Pink Floyd before, which is a great example) still retains a certain level of self-criticism? Why are there endless legions of fans for whom DT are the arché, the zenith, the musical logos? Why all this unjustified fundamentalism? I mean, I understand losing your head for a band, but believing them to be indescribable monsters descended to earth is another matter. So I wonder: given the usual "parameters" that a DT fan seeks in music, namely a blend of technique and melody, melodic solutions, virtuosity, etc., there are millions of other groups that are at an infinitely superior level and of which these fans are not even aware. And why do some of them, once they become aware of these other groups, significantly downsize their taste for DT or worse, begin to renounce them shamelessly?

Alexander77, I am not in the mind of those who gave those votes to I&W; I cannot understand how they could have done it or on what principle. Clearly, if they considered the parameter of "no one has ever done it before," then it makes sense why they said I&W might have some validity. Then, if, as many do, we talk about DT as innovators "in the metal realm," it makes even more sense to say that they have been innovative (and I wrote it above in some comments). However, I think that music is one, and that there are communicative archetypes that go beyond genres, trends, and sometimes even culture. From the perspective of how much I&W approaches or diverges from these archetypes, I say that it is a perfectly useless album, for the reasons I have extensively explained so far. It can be entertaining, it can be pleasant, it can pump you up like crazy, it can be whatever you want, but it is another thing altogether. Furthermore, DT is one of those bands for which commercial success inevitably influences judgment. The same goes for Pink Floyd, for example, another great band for which objectivity often goes out the window because "they are Pink Floyd, oh!!". This is not to say they suck, obviously, but surely many of their works have been overly praised. It's precisely the overvaluation of DT's works that sets my nerves on edge. If they had the same number of fans but no one shouting miracle with each new album, I wouldn't be so "angry." Since they are often treated on par with Mozart and Picasso (something that doesn't happen so annoyingly with other bands subject to trends and fanaticism: compare the fanaticism for DT to that for 70s prog, or for U2, I don't know, or for any other globally successful band, there’s no comparison) and are often compared to the Olympian gods, it’s good to occasionally put things into perspective.

ALEXANDER77: IT MEANS THAT THE DT ARE THE BEST GROUP IN THE WORLD AND I AM JUST ONE OF THE COUNTLESS TIME-WASTING Detractors. I WROTE IN CAPS TOO, HOPEFULLY THIS RESPONSE WILL BE GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU ONCE AND FOR ALL.

And you criticize me for needing to respect others' tastes. Me, who speaks after having listened to the album, after years of listening to OTHER DT albums, and after having built my opinion over time. And you who shoot down electronic music because you confuse it with the DJs at nightclubs? Seriously, do we need to comment? Do you even know what electronic music is, or do you limit yourself to what’s played on MTV? Do you know what the job of an electronic music composer is (who is not a DJ, alas...)? Do we really still need to discuss this? Go educate yourself, please.